Hung Gar in the modern fight

I posted a similar question to this in the mantis forums sometimes I visit. Martial arts now days are going through an interesting period. Particularly here in the US. The popularity of the MMA has forced a lot of martialists to evaluate the skills of their chosen art as new methods of fighting are becoming more widespread. At the same time kung fu is going through a rather particular evolution as the shift of the future of the art is really, moving from China to North America and Europe as many a master have immigrated and set up shop in other countries. Of course the US is right in the thick of that as well.

So to get to the topic. Every martial art has its established rules so to speak. For mantis its the 12 keys. For hung gar its the 12 bridges. There are also the 5 elements theory. These are just concepts but the technical base of the art stems from them. So, in what ways on an individual technical level, or on a conceptual level have you found that Hung Gar or Hasayfu to be successful in the traditional tenets described, even in the face of the "modern" fighting? In what ways do you feel that some concepts might be antiquated? Its no secret, we don't fight in the US like they did in ancient China. How have you "modernized" certain practices? Where you successful in applying it?

For an example just to start things off, but no way limiting. Kui Sow. It has a similar problem that mantis faces in its Ou, Lou, Tsai concept (contact or hooking, grappling/grabbing, plucking/pulling). It is difficult to pluck a boxer. Just as bridging is difficult as boxing by its nature, avoids the bridge. How have you dealt with this issue or others you might think of? Its a very open ended question I realize.

Hung Gar in the mordern fight

How's it going Chris?

I think this is a very good question indeed. I'll start with the Kiu Sow portion. As you stated, the Kiu Sow is basically a bridge of sorts. Remember a bridge doesn't have to be a fixed object. It can be placed and removed as needed by the person that needs to be connected to the other object. It is easy to confuse the concept of "bridging" with the concept of "sticking" to someone. Once you block the on coming attack, for instance a jab, you have "bridged" to the opponent because you are no connected. The structure of the Kiu Sow is designed to make your "bridge" strong by making it possible to use the ligament strength instead of brute muscle. This in turn allows you to be able to now adjust that Kiu Sow to move to any of the other "bridges" in Hung Gar. From that Kiu Sow block you can easily move to the "bridge" concept of inch power (Chun kiu) or just a straight punch (Jik kiu). With this in mind I have been able to use the 12 bridge concept in fighting. I might add it has been years since I've been in a real "street" fight situation. But in sparing situations, it has worked well.

I don’t think MMA is causing a big shift in the “traditional” martial arts world sort of speak. I think it is causing a big shift in new practitioners’ desires for training. Most modern practitoners, including myself, tried our hand in different styles before finding the traditional school we were able to latch on to. I studied a little Karate, Judo, and Jui Jijitsu prior to my entrance into Hung Gar. I picked up some pretty good techniques or ideas from each of those stops. As you know we consider our school to be a traditional one indeed, but Sifu does not believe in abandoning things that work for you. He never told me to forget everything I had before coming to Lam Tang, but to use what works. I feel that by in no means take anything away from the true concepts of Hung Gar as a system. Hung Gar is my chosen system and all of my dedication goes to perfecting those concepts. Newer or younger practitoners may dabble in some of everything and never adopt a “traditional” style so they would then be true MMA.

I don’t think we fight in modern times like they did in ancient China either, but not because of modernization. I think it is because of the difference in training and emphasis on the Chi power. With the historical stories of how strong the ancient training was (Iron Palm, un-movable horse stances, Iron Shirt, etc.), there is no way the ancient fights could have lasted long. When I refer to fight I mean, strike for strike or blow for blow. Every strike would be considered a death strike in ancient China. Grand Master Wing Lam even said “fights” in old China would last for hours and days because no one would throw any strikes. Each fighter would study and watch the opponent for long periods of time because one strike ended the fight. These days we imitate movements and develop just enough power and strength to survive (due to our work day schedules or priorities), so our fights include blow for blow or strike for strike fighting. Very rarely these days would you have someone that could totally end a fight with “one” martial strike. We have people that can knock you out in one punch, but some of those strikes are just well place lucky strikes.

Like you said this is a very open ended question, but a good one indeed.

Si Hing Rob

Hung Gar in the modern fight

That's a good point. One bridge can always go into the next. It is a point to be brought up though. Its amazing how many traditional martial artists are thrown off by simple "flailing" in a street fight. Particularly when they can be so skilled at defending against a more organized attack of a fellow practitioner. It is amplified when facing someone of an unfamiliar fighting method than your own. Back when the Americans first hit the shores in Asia, I wonder just how the reaction was to the boxers/wrestlers that may have come in with the ships. I think its quite possible that both the Chinese fighters and the Americans didn't know what they were looking at. And its also possible that some of the kung fu techniques we sometimes take for granted, may have come as a response to just such occurrences.

And thats the things about traditional arts and the whole MMA thing. I don't see it as any different that the evolutions that have always taken place within martial arts. Every art that is alive today, has evolved to changing situations. Though its not such a culture shock today as what may have been 200 years ago, it is still taking place. In the 80's and 90's, everyone was into the Karate game. I don't think too many people were concerned about what would happen if you got into a bar fight with a wrestler. But things like UFC and Pride have brought a popularity to other aspects of fighting. Grappling, wrestling...as kung fu fighters we have to be ready to defend against such things, that is its impact on us. Look how many more kwoons now are also incorporating San Shou into the regiment. All in all I think it will be good for the kung fu arts though. We all want to see the art flourish. We all want to make kung fu stronger that the generation before us.

I would contend against the statement though about fighting for punches. With advances in diet, sports medicine and the like...I think fighters today would hit much harder than someone 300, 200, even just 50-100 years ago. Look at other sports. How many Olympic records from the early 1900's are still intact today? I'd venture to say none. Now if you want to include other things into the picture. Like level of skill, knowledge of vulnerable targets for example then you begin to take on a bigger picture and yes in that end for the "untrained" fighters today, yeah it wouldn't be the same as in those days. But then, in those days they didn't have guns so it was necessary. I guess it would be easiest to say, the average fighter today might be less skilled/conditioned than the average fighter of that time. Though in today's society we don't really need to be. But the trained fighters today, I think are making bounds ahead of the past generations.

Hung Gar in Mordern Fight

I do believe in fighters today are stronger if you are looking at brute strength. We have guys pulling tractor trailers, airplanes, and loaded transit buses daily in these strong man contest. I can’t argue that point, but the strength I’m talking about of the fighters 100-200 years ago is not brute. I’ve seen demonstrations of people possessing on a small amount of the internal power that I’m talking about. Today’s time we rely on weight training and other “medicine” to get our strength and size. In those days it was just plain old regular days work like carrying water, wood, chopping down the tree, etc. Stance training and Qi gong were staples. Add that to a skilled martial artist of that day using internal energy and I don’t think there is any comparison to what we see today. I’ve seen Sifu do some things with internal energy in this modern day that I wouldn’t think was humanly possible. Magnify that times even 3 and you have some trouble on your hands. There is more than one kind of power, brute power and true power, just like speed and true speed. What we see mostly today is brute power that is purely external in nature. What was in ancient China was true power which is more internal. The external was developed as a means of sustaining the internal power being exerted. Although I agree with you there are some strong young guys today, I believe there were some stronger old guys back then.

I also agree with your evolution of the art assessment. There are some schools that add San Shou to there regiment. We do a little Shuai Jiao (Chinese Wrestling) in our school, but that is only to enhance the similar essence in our Hung Gar. There are numerous ground techniques, locks, and throws in Hung Gar alone but the Shuai Jiao just adds some flavor. My only issue with the MMA fighters is the abandonment of the traditional values. Some of those guys never studied or concentrated on one particular style and have no problem telling you. The objective is to get you on the ground and drop as many elbows as possible. The Jiu Jijitsu guys do pretty well at keeping to there true concepts. I agree though, it all goes toward helping the arts flourish.

Hung Gar

Where are you located these days Chris? Still practicing your Hung Gar?

Rob

I'm out in Texas right now

I'm out in Texas right now going to school for Flying Med. Tech. I still practice when I can, but I'm not going to lie its not easy. Most days I go to class from 7:30 to 4:45, come home to eat and shower then hit the books til 11 or 12pm. I test skills in about a week and a half and challenge the national registry after that...so once that is done and I start nursing things should become less hectic. Eventually...someday...I'll get back to SC.

Texas

That's good. To bad you don't have time to practice right now, the time will come after you finish school and nurse training. With the Flying Med. Tech, do you intend to work on one of the hospital helicoptors? We're still training pretty hard around here. It'll be good to have you back at the school when you get finished. Stay in touch.

Rob

Running in a helicopter rig

Running in a helicopter rig is one of the things I am looking at as being one of the possible things I'd like to do. I used to work on rescue choppers in Japan on active duty though not in a medical aspect. Things are a bit different though now that I am reserve. I'm going to have to either work in an ambulance or pull hospital med tech. for a while until I finish some more school on my own time. Between you and me, bedpans aren't my gig so I think I'll be runnin a rig for a while. I have to get my paramedic certs before I can fly as a civilian medic. In the mean time my reserve duties have me pulling med tech on C-17s so I'll log a ton of flying hours on those anyways. So yeah, its a bit of a hassle now but it will let me pay my bills so its all good. I know Lexington is looking for a ton of EMT's so I think I'm going to try and jump on that bus first off.

Stay strong,
Chris

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